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Talk:Earth-TRN414
Is time really immutable? The theory that time is immutable is raised in the film, but this is almost immediately addressed afterwards with Charles Xavier noting that he "doesn't believe in that theory" and then going out and changing history. While there are similarities between the ultimate endings of the realities, there are clearly differences as well, and certainly Bryan Singer has stated that he believes the original film timeline still continues elsewhere. To question this would also throw out dozens of other universes that have been created in effectively the same way across the Marvel multiverse? Ashrod (talk) 16:30, May 27, 2014 (UTC) :I didn't watch the film yet, but I know it's an adaptation of original Days of Future Past story. In this story past and future are two different reailities. And it's the rule of the Marvel Multiverse: Time travels to the past mostly makes alternate realities. And Wolverine's actions entirely affects the future and a new reality made. That probably ceased to exist Earth-10005 (Sorry for my english)--Primestar3 (talk) 20:04, May 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Most of the arguments against it seem to be based on the idea that the films are different in some way, although Bryan Singer's attitude towards it happens to match the Marvel stance on the matter. In actual fact the movie depicts three alternate futures, with the original timeline from the first lot of movies not appearing at all (although the first two of these three realities have all the movies in their back story anyway as the changes to history were just down to Bishop jumping back a couple of days, rather than Wolverine's big jump of 50 years which created the third and final reality depicted). This particular deletion though seems to be based around a comment made by Beast of the new timeline speculating that time is "immutable" and regardless of what is done time will always fix itself so the final result is correct, however this is clearly not the case (as per new timeline Xavier's stance) as shown at the end as history is completely rewritten which goes against the definition of an "immutable timeline" (in reality if it was an immutable timeline Wolverine would just have woken up back in the future with nothing having changed in the slightest). Ashrod (talk) 20:36, May 27, 2014 (UTC) :::I tagged the article for three reasons: :::*The movie's creators are not bound by conventions laid down for the comic books, so the articles shouldn't be forced to fit the traditional Earth-designation structure. :::*The immutable time issue was mentioned by Simon Kinberg, the script writer. He's talking about a shifting of events within the timeline, not a branching to a new timeline. To me, it sounds like a road where the characters have been able to warn their earlier selves of a pothole, and have then swerved to avoid it, but they're still on the same road. :::*Most importantly, we saw on screen Kitty and Bishop being erased from existence. Had there been a parallel universe carrying on we would have seen them get killed. :::-- WarBlade (talk) 21:14, May 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::The problem is we are applying the traditional Earth-designations to these films and if we do that then the films need to be considered using that system. We do not simply see Kitty and Bishop being erased, they just aren't there, if we had jumped to the other universe then that would indeed have been the case. ::::The problem with truly immutable time is that if that was the case then time would always end up with exactly the same result every time, to start picking and choosing pulls apart the theory really and makes it pointless really. ::::Of course though there is another possible explanation that could solve everything here, and allow both stances to be followed. We follow a similar stance to how "Age of Ultron" was treated, which allows both Singer and Kinberg to be followed. If that is the case then the new reality is Earth-10005, but we would also need a new designation for the original universe (as per Bryan Singer's idea that they carry on in a parallel universe). Either way the page shouldn't be deleted, it should simply be rewritten to make TRN414 the original film reality and shift the new film reality to Earth-10005. Ashrod (talk) 11:30, May 28, 2014 (UTC) So, when will TRN414 get an actual designation number? Also, just to throw my cards onto the table, and feel free to correct me, but the original reality being TRN414 doesn't make much sense. I see timelines as being "lines." When Wolverine went back into time, he bent that line and briefly tied it into 1973, which is really what TRN414 is. After preventing Trask's assassination, the original timeline looped back to where it was, leaving 1973's original events altered radically. The universes are like trains moving to the same destination, really. : :We admins have discussed about this issue, and we have reached the decision to use the multiverse theory. Earth-TRN414 stays. ::--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:42, June 8, 2014 (UTC) ::If that's the case then there has to be a third reality because Bishop changed the past in the movie also it's still in the ruind future but he changed it non the less. I still think it should be the same reality look at the official timeline . --Red Duel 14:38, June 10, 2014 (UTC) :::Yes, there's a third timeline (actually many more, as Kitty stated they used that method to save themselves numerous times). But they are irrelevant. The "Sentinels killed Free Mutants" is that third reality, and Earth-10005 is still there until Wolverin changed the events in the '70s. Btw, that's not the official timeline, it was made by MTV with information taken from the X-Men Movies wikia. ::::--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 23:35, June 10, 2014 (UTC) Earth-10005 Its pretty well-established in the film that everything takes place in the one timeline, that changes with actions in the past becoming apparent once the messenger in the past returns to the future. As a result why do we have this Earth page and the associated character articles, when they are in fact the same characters from Earth-10005? Garhdo (talk) 23:47, June 2, 2014 (UTC) :Because that's not so easy like this. Time Travels to the past always make alternate timelines. They altered the past and changes the future. In Marvel's rule that means divergent realities. I hope I'm explain some things. (Sorry for my english)--Primestar3 (talk) 18:04, June 4, 2014 (UTC) ::Primestar3 it was stated by the director that it is just a new timeline and not a new reality.--Red Duel 19:27, June 4, 2014 (UTC) :I still that this page shouldn't be a candidate for deletion. Garhdo is correctly. You can't expect to travel back in time, change the future, and expect the continued existence of only one reality. Hugh Everett proposed that choices are being played out in other universes adjacent to ours. Wolverine altered the past, and different choices were "made," which really means forced, so a new reality with reinvented characters was created. : First Class and some flashbacks I think that the First Class, like some flashbacks that occours before 1973, has benn considerate parts of the two timelines, because was before the changes. I also think that characters or organizations that appears only or dies before the changes has been considerate parts of two timelines (Hellfire Club, Emma Frost, Banshee, Magneto's parents, Wolverine's parents, etc.), keeping the Earth-10005 on name, but adding a template of a Earth-TRN414 character. Bobby stronda (talk) 22:02, December 26, 2015 (UTC) ::First Class is primarily Earth-10005 and was released as an Earth-10005 film. Days of Future Past is what introduced Earth-TRN414. Earth-TRN414 is a branch off of the Earth-10005 timeline, and so far, Days of Future Past is the only film to show that timeline. Hulkophile (talk) 6:24, December 27, 2015 (UTC) Post-DOFP is still Earth-10005 I am proposing that all Earth-TRN414 material be merged into Earth-10005 because, based on in-universe events, DOFP did not create a second timeline (Earth-TRN414), it rewrote the original Earth-10005 timeline. Apologies for the length. ---- Time travel has been used as a plot device both X-Men: Days of Future Past (DOFP) and Deadpool 2 (DP2). In these films, the depiction of altering the past is consistent: # Character travels to the past # Character alters a key event (i.e. Mystique killing Trask; Firefist turning evil) # The "ripple effect" alters history from the key event onwards Once a character alters a key event, the ripple effect passes through the timeline and alters history from the key event onwards. To familiarize yourself with the ripple effect, I suggest watching the Back to the Future films. Basically, characters bring items from the future back to the past with them, typically photographs and newspaper headlines, and use them to observe the ripple effect as it changes the timeline (i.e. newspaper headline "Emmett Brown committed" fades into "Emmett Brown commended"). Back to X-Men, there are two main events showing that DOFP caused a ripple effect along the Earth-10005 timeline instead of creating a new, separate timeline. DP2 uses an item from the future, Cable's daughter's teddy bear, to observe the ripple effect in action. When Firefist is turned away from evil, the key event is changed and the timeline is altered. As the ripple effect changes the timeline, the teddy bear is "fixed". Cable's memory is also protected from the ripple effect as he is in the past (much like Doc and Marty in BTTF). DOFP instead shows the ripple effect during the future that it being rewritten. The first is Kitty sending Bishop's consciousness back to warn the group to never go to their current base and therefore avoid the Sentinel attack, the second is Mystique deciding to not kill Trask thanks to Wolverine's interference with Charles. In both cases, when the key event is changed, everything fades to how it would be now that the key event is different. Bishop and Wolverine retain their memories in each scenario as they were in the past and the cause of the timeline change. Nobody else remembers as, from their perspective, there was never a different timeline. If changing the past resulted in the creation of a new timeline alongside the old one, then the ripple effect would be impossible. Cable's teddy bear would not have been "fixed" because his family is alive in a different timeline, not the one that the teddy bear came from. Nor would the characters in DOFP fade away to wake up in the mansion, they would remain and be killed by the Sentinels because they're alive and well in a separate timeline not the one that they're in. If we follow the current system, then the timeline where Kitty and Bishop are attacked by Sentinels in the opening of DOFP would be another separate timeline. Add onto that the multiple times that they've done this before and we have a huge mess. Finally, the DP2 mid-credits scenes with Deadpool travelling to Origins to kill old Deadpool, and to real-life to kill Ryan Reynolds before Green Lantern is just an Easter egg and appears not canon as it contradicts the ripple effect not only in DOFP but also within the film that literally happened just before it. NickM98 (talk) 06:42, July 23, 2018 (UTC) :That's not how Marvel's multiverse works. Each divergence, call it a "ripple effect" if you want but the term Marvel uses is divergence, is in fact defining point of a separate reality, the old reality isn't actually overwritten, it still occurs in its own reality unaffected. -- Annabell (talk) 07:03, July 23, 2018 (UTC) ::I understand the multiverse theory, but the main points I brought up appear to work against divergences. For Cable's teddy bear in DP2, if the existing reality diverged to create a new reality, the teddy bear shouldn't have been "fixed" as it's from the old reality that still exists unaltered, it's only the new reality where his family doesn't die. As for Logan Prime waking up in the mansion, based on the DOFP comics, he should've woken up in his original reality (as did Kitty in the comics) which would, in theory, still exist alongside the new one. I want to believe the multiverse divergence theory, but evidence is suggesting that the film timelines were instead re-written (ripple effect) with no divergence. Makes for less confusion on the viewer's part. NickM98 (talk) 10:40, July 25, 2018 (UTC)